Are the days of faces and heels coming to an end?

Discussion in 'General WWE' started by SWL, Aug 13, 2017.

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  1. I think this is an interesting topic and the way wrestling should be at the moment. We shouldn't label certain people but rather just let them do their thing. It's also easier to book as you can just put everyone with anyone and the rest writes itself. I totally dislike how WWE gives every babyface the same treatment with the same promos that don't work as well as they once did. Every wrestler on their roster should have a gimmick that isn't designed to get cheers or boos but to rather get attention from the audience. Most of the time, the best matches are simply ego vs ego and not heel vs face. But you can tell me what you think and leave your thoughts down below


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  2. I guess at the end of the day if the WWE can put on
    a great show with some good/solid wrestling without
    playing up the entire face/heel dynamic...then good
    for them.

    Of course this entire line of thinking comes from the
    WWE television crowds (I don't care about house
    shows) constantly booing one guy in particular...
    and really at the end of the day...does it really matter?

    No...not really...

    Will the WWE "change" their mind and push someone else? No...

    Will the crowds ever embrace their "Chosen One"? No...

    If people are happy to pay their money for live event tickets and
    the network...then its working for the WWE.

    Of course...if the "numbers" keep question would
    be then what?
  3. #3 King Of Armageddon, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    First off, I have to say that I enjoy a lot of your posts because you write with a lot of common sense and thoroughly. We might not always agree but becauae of you, I learn another side or point of view often so thank you for that and I will follow your posts/threads from now on.

    With that being said so profoundly by you, I agree :emoji_100:% with you and Braun. I'm glad to see that he speaks off camera, I'mma have to find his interviews to listen to them. This is exactly how the new wave (newer WWE fans or returning WWE fans) needs to understand WWE as it is now, I was the same way awhile back where I wanted specific labels for each superstar until I saw the difference in performance. Certain superstars get a lot of grief for how they work but this is an "entertainment" business which means none of us are going to get exactly what we want but somewhere down the line it'll satisfied each type of fan.

    For instance, I don't care for a Shield reunion but some fans are dying for it (even the fans who dislike Roman Reigns), I don't like Kevin Owens but I respect his work now, I didn't care for AJ Styles but now I see him being a major part of WWE's future, etc. So I'm with you and Braun Strowman, we live in a time where everything has to fast and instant so why not change the regular routine of "Hey, I'm a heel, just hate me as I pick on your favorite faces." or "HEY, I'm a face and you have to like me because I'm the good guy and I'm going to do everything politically correct so you'll like me more!!".

    However, I will say that the fans (all and any) do need to pick a side, give these wrestlers/superstars a chance to develop and stop with the added trolling nonsense. Like, booing someone just to turn around and cheer them after their promo/performance or chanting weird shit that don't pertain to that wrestler (or even WWE). I'm all for fun and all but I personally don't understand that type of stuff.
  4. I always read that but I also just read that Raw's climbing back up from 2.0 to 2.2 this summer. Which isn't much but last year they weren't doing any better.. of course when you look at it over the years, the last time they averaged a 3 mil throughout the whole year was 2013.

    thank you

    uh I see that a lot with Reigns, everytime he walks in a match, they boo him but everytime he finishes a match everyone's on their feet cheering. In a way he has to work twice as hard to get them to turn on themselves lol
    Something that I wanted to add to the original post was that "crowd pandering" is the biggest downfall to both heels and faces.. but especially faces and the reason why Reigns/Braun is working is because they're not doing this for the crowd. They never even acknowledged the crowd and I think that makes everything way more intense when people are just laser-focused on their opponent. Remember Rock/Cena? Even though their matches weren't all that great, it was selling because they had an issue that didn't link to anyone but them. Then you also have to bring up every Brock Lesnar feud. Joe vs Lesnar - 2 big egos going at it, not giving a shit about who cheers for who. Taker vs Lesnar - 2 grown ass men fighting it out by anymeans necessary, also not caring if people will boo one of the 2. There are a bunch of good examples but those are the ones jumping into my head right now.
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  5. An interesting topic. You all have posted some great stuff already, so hey, notifications ftw
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  6. I'm not just talking about ratings...I'm talking about every number...
    Crowd attendance (live & house shows), Network Subscriptions,
    Merchandise sales, social media and TV ratings...all the "numbers"

    I mean the WWE has stated that TV numbers aren't really that
    important...but when the TV contracts need to be renewed...who
    knows what the WWE will start saying.

    Me personally as a wrestling fan...I just want good to great matches
    with a "clean" finish.

    A winner, a loser, some proper story progression.

    I want some interesting stories about interesting characters where
    I can be invested in who actually gets to win.

    I'll watch who I want and ignore who I want and I'm free to make
    that choice.

    But...I'm an overseas fan who watches all the matches he wants
    online and buys the pay per view dvds as they come out through
    the year.

    In the grand scheme of things...I don't really matter to the WWE.

    I know this...and I understand it.

    Its the fans in the United States, Canada & the United Kingdom
    who will attend the shows, pay for the network and buy the merch
    that really matter.

    (I just want to state I would buy WWE merch if I could find anything
    else besides Roman Reigns T-Shirts and action figures...just saying...
    Although I do have a nice collection of WWE pop vinyls...all female
    performers of course)

    When all those "numbers" continue to drop and more people walk away
    from the product...what does the WWE do then?

    Back at the start of the Monday Night Wars...the WWE had to change
    and evolve to compete with WCW and that evolution gave rise to the
    most successful era in the companies history.

    All I'm saying is the wrestling can be given a 5 (or 6) star rating...but the
    "general audience" needs a story to be invested in the actual wrestling.

    Look at Game of Thrones as an example...a story filled with complex
    characters all with their own motivations and the end
    of the day...there are heroes...and there are villains.

    We want to see the heroes triumph and the villains fail (and die for
    the most part).

    Is there a "moral grey area"? Of course there is...but the WWE is
    not Game of Thrones...and perhaps the most simple and direct
    approach is better for wrestling as a story telling medium.

    Give us a hero to cheer for...and give us a villain to hate...and the
    audience can get invested...they can pick a side...they can actually
    care about the story being told...instead of just cheering because
    two giant men are beating the shit out of each other.

    Anyone can go to a bar and watch two drunk idiots do that.

    Of course may-be I'm just old fashioned...
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  7. I don't really see that many people "walking away". I think they just decide to watch it the day after rather than on TV. Or like most other people who don't have "USA Network" on their TV, they just watch it on the internet.
    Also, WWE doesn't have anything to worry about financially. Despite the rough start, the WWE Network is starting to make them a lot of money, especially now that more and more countries are getting involved. Yes, PPVs were 50 bucks back then but it was that way mostly on american television. With the network, everyone around the world pays for their content which makes them more money than before. Adding to that, people don't only pay for new stuff, but the old stuff as well. So even if they don't like the current product they can still watch everything else. Which draws another crowd
    As far as weekly ratings go, they really don't matter as much as people act like they do. They have their sponsors, they have their commercials in between that make them a hella lot of money.

    I think it's hard to say how ratings get effected and how they're not. Especially with a 3 hour show, you can't hook everyone with just 1 interesting feud, you have to hook them through all of it. I, for one, think it's incredible that they do hold up so well after expanding to 3 hours because as a human being, I wouldn't wanna sit through 3 hours of Raw, I just skip through it. So the fact that they still get over 2 million people to do so is pretty astonishing to me.
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  8. Okay...but what about what I mentioned with the current lack of the heel/face dynamic?

    You seem to be explaining to me why ratings and numbers don't matter...
    Okay...fine...but what about what I actually mentioned about the thread topic

    Also...numbers don't lie...2 + 2 is always 4 and a drop in ratings is a
    drop in ratings.

    Numbers are as close to the word of God as man can get...

    Also...and just a side note here...but if a sports team is loosing games
    and their "stats" are dropping...isn't it a wise decision to change coaches
    or at least try some different players in different positions.

    Would you agree with that?
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  9. this is all I got regarding that, the rest were just hints at Reigns again (you really love bringing him up for someone who doesn't watch him)
    and GOT and WWE is hard to compare because a series has a bit more time to evolve. Bunch of writers sit down for a couple weeks and write this stuff, then they record/direct it and then they edit it. Raw/Smackdown is weekly and live, you can't expect the same attention to detail and quality of storylines when you have to put on a stellar show every week with like 8 different stories going on. You also can't compare sports to pro wrestling because one is real competition and the other is entertainment with, at the moment, no real competition.

    The essential meaning of the thread was to talk about how people aren't buying good vs bad anymore. In UFC you don't have good and bad people, you just have people with real emotions and ambitions. This was never about ratings and numbers. You brought that up.
    You can read up on the direction of this discussion on post #4 by yours truly where I address "crowd pandering" as one of the biggest good/bad guy things they should drop. And just in advance, don't make this about Roman again, thank you.
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  10. The heel/face dichotomy has been slowly fading for some time now. Wrestling fans have evolved and so has the product, we don't live in kayfabe anymore. We know that under the characters are real people and that's what most of us are interested in. With that in mind characters should be written like people with their own strengths and weaknesses and nuances. All storylines shouldn't be some simple good vs. evil or David vs. Goliath, ect. Just put these men and women in relatable situations that allows people to get engaged in whats going on.
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  11. The days of faces and heels are over, yet fans don't get it yet. I've been saying this. Maybe one day people will catch up and stop with the "DURR ROMAN REIGNS AND JOHN CENA NEED PROPER HEEL TURNS"
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  12. only with certain people. There are still a bunch of guys that are purely labeled as either face or heel. People like AJ and Rollins turned 100% babyface and completely "erased" everything they've done as heels from their attitude. There's only a hand full of talent that is in that situation right now. Most notably everyone in the Summerslam main event
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  13. and I think that's the reason why they should just adjust to this situation entirely and just drop a part of tradition. Having people be humans for a change would blur the line between program and real life a bit
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  14. #14 Alex Jones, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    The heel/face thing is just an ideal.

    My theory is more people watch wrestling in search for the gimmicky evil mean guy stuff. People dig it because its the only thing of the kind out there. It is a niche market to the industry which to me has heels putting people in seats now. The good guy, bad guy thing is not some unwritten rule. It is the formula to a telling story. Try to not name five movies of the top of your head where the bad guys fight the good guys. Sami vs Shinsuke at NXT was great and was a face vs face. But there always has to be a reason for the fighting. True characters are revealed by the choices they make under pressure.

    The antagonist will always need a protagonist or there can be no fights. Not a chance this ideal will be going anywhere, it's just not as big a thing as people look into it being.

    And to note, WWE have begun to start changing their outlet by being more creative. Is Jinder a bad guy? Or is he fighting for his country? They are broadening the horizons and blurring lines now which I enjoy. I don't know if it can last, but GOT sure does a great job at it. I quite frankly never saw Punk as a bad guy, yet he was clearly heel and doing terrible things, I wanted to see him break everything down. It's nice that WWE are being more open with this and letting people pick their own favorites, I think it is a great thing for that company.
  15. imo the only reason for fighting should always be to be the top man and/or make the most money. Eventually egos collide if everyone else wants to be on top. I don't really see the need to have good vs evil for that. Besides, you know damn well WWE labels their characters as faces or heels. And I wouldn't say it's an "unwritten rule" because I'm pretty sure they label their characters as either good or bad (most of them at least). Like, I can just see them going "alright we're gonna make Jason Jordan Kurt Angles son and he's gonna be moving forward as a babyface" during their meetings
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  16. Because that is the structure that wrestling and WWE is built on. By Jordan turning face and getting a push he will have to knock someone else off the ranking and take their spot. Do you want to knock off Sami Sayn the loveable good guy and make him lose to Jordan. Sami has fallen to a random push and would be stuck with nothing to do. So lets say he fights back at Jordan and gets his spot back. Now we have just gone full circle.

    But if they were to keep fighting. Would you really consider both to be good guys? You would pick one or the other to be the more bitter. Problem is the babyfaces do great at events and TV. So when a face starts losing his good guy cred his popularity could fall, like Punk 2014. Sure you get a Neville who does better as a heel. There is plenty of non heel/face matchups out there all the time. But the problem is that doesn't make for regular entertaining material. People want drama and to get that you have to throw some hurdles in each others way. Every story has a good guy and a bad guy because that is where the entertainment comes from.

    I love a good ol fashion handshake match but I dont want to see 10 a night. There has to be a clash between the two to make the matches mean something in WWE. It is a TV drama. It just isn't good TV to not have this backlog of plans for making people seem good or bad. It is all about influencing the audience and putting on a show.

    Does UFC have good guys and bad guys? You are damn right and that is how they sell all their fights. It is a formula for success and clearly it continues to work.
  17. obviously the crowd is allowed to pick sides. The idea was that the company shouldn't bother with going "this is how we're gonna make them like this guy" and just put them out there. If Jordan and Zayn were to have a match, they'd immediately turn towards Zayn (which they kinda already did last Raw when they booed Jordan). So in the crowd's mind, they're done with Jordan but Jordan shouldn't be phased by it and just move on. It's hard to put into words but what WWE does most of the time is writing the character first and then the situation even though it should always be the situation first and then trying to figure out how said character reacts to being in that situation.
    It's the typical "put yourself in _____'s situation" and then you have a human storyline that isn't necessary a heel turn or a change of heart but rather something people would normally do.
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  18. I get what you mean, its a tricky concept to explain and to relate to in an actual good point. But again, it is a simply an ideal in the wrestling world to help keep the wheels turning.
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  19. Only because you seem to go out of your way to defend him...
    which I personally find hilarious... just stop the discussion outright by shouting his name...
    or telling people to "Chill, Relax...its just Ice-Cream"

    Why don't you actually learn to have a proper discussion instead
    of putting your fingers in your ears when someone types something
    you don't like.

    And don't tell me what I can and cannot're not boss of
    me...and thankfully you never will be. sum up from what I've read in this thread...and this is a very
    simple overview:

    "Who cares who is the good guy or the bad guy...I just want to see
    two or more people punching each other!"

    Is that about right?
  20. hey, this was pretty hypocritical and contradicting to your point.
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