Chair shots to the head

Mr. Roman Empire

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Where do you stand on the chair shot that Cody took to the head? Was it necessary? Is CTE too serious to be taking that risk? Do you agree with the Young Bucks and Tony Khan talking about how the chair was supposed to be "gimmicked" at the press conference? Should they of stayed kayfabe or are we in an era where everybody already knows its a work so the owners and executives dont need to shy away from it?
 
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The Sheik

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I'm cool with it because the wrestlers signed up for this. They don't have to take head shots if they don't want to.

It really is stupid for them to do, but it's their choice.
 

Beavie

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I think it was one thing on the show I disagree with happening now that the initial shock wore off. I can understand that they are going to be more adult oriented and (while I doubt they will be breaking out barbed-wire hardcore matches on TNT) they will have some violence given they have Moxley, Janela, Darby Allin and Jimmy Havoc on their roster, but it is one thing which there is very little room to avoid serious serious injury. At least with this incident, it was likely Cody's idea (the guy who is one of the people in charge), but the Shawn Spears heel turn could have been done with a Chair shot to the back and a beatdown. Especially with the commentary playing up the risk... While in some ways it is good that they acknowledged the risk... It also just makes it more uncomfortable to a point where it is... too uncomfortable, especially with the growing information on the risk of it.

If they continue to do very-hardcore stuff, have it saved for big PPVs and when it makes sense (like a blood-feud or Jimmy Havoc needs something to unwind after brunch), but no unprotected chair shots to the head. Let them block with their hands at the very least or don't do them to the head at all. It's a shame because the turn on its own is interesting enough and it followed a great match with Darby Allin on a good show, and it left a black mark for people.
 

JacobFox

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The incident itself demonstrated why they shouldn't do this. It got fucked up and it really hurt him. And I disagree about it being their choice. It was Chris Benoit's choice to take unprotected chairshots and to use flying headbutts and it destroyed his brain, which led to the death of two people who didn't deserve to die.

It's not just Cody's health. The Benoit tragedy proved that.
 

white crow

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Chair shots to the head really are a big deal, could fuck you up permanently. It’s in everyone’s interests to stay away from it.
 

JacobFox

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The brain on the right is what Benoit's brain looked like when he committed the murder and suicide. Cody should have known better and not done it. Chair shots to the head are not necessary in pro wrestling.
 
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white crow

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This thread instantly made me think about Benoit. Although his concussions were mainly caused by diving headbutts, chair shots had a role in there as well.

And yeah, ban the fucking diving headbutts as well. That must be the most dangerous move a wrestler can perform.
 
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Grievous II

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Where do you stand on the chair shot that Cody took to the head? Was it necessary?
I think he should have at least raised his hands...

I can see what they were going for...BUT...the days
of unprotected chair shots to the head are behind
us.

Also this entire "chair shot debacle" took all the
attention away from the true star of the moment
Darby Allin...who had just put on a great 20 minute
draw with Cody.
 

Mr. Roman Empire

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I think he should have at least raised his hands...

I can see what they were going for...BUT...the days
of unprotected chair shots to the head are behind
us.

Also this entire "chair shot debacle" took all the
attention away from the true star of the moment
Darby Allin...who had just put on a great 20 minute
draw with Cody.
I think it was a good way to start an angle and give something important for Codys and Spears story. Especially since they arent on TV yet but still need a story to tell.
 

Grievous II

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I think it was a good way to start an angle and give something important for Codys and Spears story. Especially since they arent on TV yet but still need a story to tell.
True...BUT Cody really needed to get his hands up.

I mean it served its purpose & I'm happy Tye...I mean
Shawn is actually involved in a high profile feud for
once...BUT...like I keep saying...HANDS UP!
 

Mr. Roman Empire

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True...BUT Cody really needed to get his hands up.

I mean it served its purpose & I'm happy Tye...I mean
Shawn is actually involved in a high profile feud for
once...BUT...like I keep saying...HANDS UP!
The chair was gimmicked to be as thin as possible. Spears also laid into him at a good level. It was too soft where it looked like shit, but wasnt overly stiff neither.
 

edge4ever

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The incident itself demonstrated why they shouldn't do this. It got fucked up and it really hurt him. And I disagree about it being their choice. It was Chris Benoit's choice to take unprotected chairshots and to use flying headbutts and it destroyed his brain, which led to the death of two people who didn't deserve to die.

It's not just Cody's health. The Benoit tragedy proved that.
I see your logic, but I think there was more mental issues going on with Benoit than just chair shots and flying headbutts. I get protecting athletes, but in the same breath, football players and even wrestlers now or from not too long ago take shots to the head a lot or botch shit and you don’t see them killing their families.

I’m not saying do this kind of chair shit all the time, but if a wrestler is in a hardcore match and is fine with it now and then, then I don’t see an issue.
 
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Mr. Roman Empire

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I see your logic, but I think there was more mental issues going on with Benoit than just chair shots and flying headbutts. I get protecting athletes, but in the same breath, football players and even wrestlers now or from not too long ago take shots to the head a lot or botch shit and you don’t see them killing their families.

I’m not saying do this kind of chair shit all the time, but if a wrestler is in a hardcore match and is fine with it now and then, then I don’t see an issue.
I believe banning the chair shot to the head was a knee jerk reaction from the Benoit situation. There are certainly provisions that could be set in place to properly gimmick the chair and safen the blow to the performer.
 

InsaneAlphaBeta

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The only way im okay with it is if its a fake steel chair, that looks like a steel chair, and maybe even sounds like one, but ultimately is soft and a direct hit causes no damage, think like the tables, how they are practicly fake tables, designed to be broken easily and cause no harm, only this is extra extra safe.

If its anything other then that, then id say chair shots to the head is a no go, i believe them when they said it was gimmicked and supposed to happen differently, things go wrong, you learn and move on.

Admittedly though they can play with this, make it seem like Spears is gonna do it again but he gets stopped or its countered creatively, just as long as they dont make the same mistake twice, which in this case is trying that spot again.


The key in all of this is safety, if it can be done safely, then do it the safe way, will it look as good? no, but we can suspend our dissbelief for the safety of these performers.
 

JacobFox

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The chair was gimmicked to be as thin as possible. Spears also laid into him at a good level. It was too soft where it looked like shit, but wasnt overly stiff neither.
And yet he still had a chunk of his head taken off that required 12 staples to close up.

That supports not doing them if even “gimmickry” chair can cause an injury.

I see your logic, but I think there was more mental issues going on with Benoit than just chair shots and flying headbutts. I get protecting athletes, but in the same breath, football players and even wrestlers now or from not too long ago take shots to the head a lot or botch shit and you don’t see them killing their families.

I’m not saying do this kind of chair shit all the time, but if a wrestler is in a hardcore match and is fine with it now and then, then I don’t see an issue.
I am not trying to be too critical here, but simply because you think something more was going on doesn’t mean it actually was. This is my area of expertise and Benoit had advanced CTE. It is the best explanation.

Now, even if something else WAS going on, that doesn’t defend using chair shots to the head. Steroids don’t cause CTE and his his actions were explainable by the CTE diagnosis. But even if Benoit’s actions were not caused by CTE, we know that the chair shots were largely responsible for the CTE and that people with advanced CTE exhibit that sort behavior. That alone defends the idea to stop doing them.
 
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edge4ever

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And yet he still had a chunk of his head taken off that required 12 staples to close up.

That supports not doing them if even “gimmickry” chair can cause an injury.



I am not trying to be too critical here, but simply because you think something more was going on doesn’t mean it actually was. This is my area of expertise and Benoit had advanced CTE. It is the best explanation.

Now, even if something else WAS going on, that doesn’t defend using chair shots to the head. Steroids don’t cause CTE and his his actions were explainable by the CTE diagnosis. But even if Benoit’s actions were not caused by CTE, we know that the chair shots were largely responsible for the CTE and that people with advanced CTE exhibit that sort behavior. That alone defends the idea to stop doing them.
I guess I don’t like the idea of “one bad apple spoils the bunch,” using that logic, why do anything risky that may have killed someone at some point?
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And yet he still had a chunk of his head taken off that required 12 staples to close up.

That supports not doing them if even “gimmickry” chair can cause an injury.



I am not trying to be too critical here, but simply because you think something more was going on doesn’t mean it actually was. This is my area of expertise and Benoit had advanced CTE. It is the best explanation.

Now, even if something else WAS going on, that doesn’t defend using chair shots to the head. Steroids don’t cause CTE and his his actions were explainable by the CTE diagnosis. But even if Benoit’s actions were not caused by CTE, we know that the chair shots were largely responsible for the CTE and that people with advanced CTE exhibit that sort behavior. That alone defends the idea to stop doing them.
Also, I’m not saying put wrestlers in harms way by exposing them to nonstop risk, but I’m also saying that the Benoit think literally never happens, even with wrestlers who had or have taken more shots than him. The odds of it not happening at gigantic. Again, I’m not condoning wrestlers just being mangled or destroyed, but this chair shot thing has been common practice for years and only 1 person went off the deep end after being hit in his head like literally a billion times for over 20 years. And, we speculate it was because of the chair shots. Could’ve been mainly because of diving headbutts?
Post automatically merged:

And yet he still had a chunk of his head taken off that required 12 staples to close up.

That supports not doing them if even “gimmickry” chair can cause an injury.



I am not trying to be too critical here, but simply because you think something more was going on doesn’t mean it actually was. This is my area of expertise and Benoit had advanced CTE. It is the best explanation.

Now, even if something else WAS going on, that doesn’t defend using chair shots to the head. Steroids don’t cause CTE and his his actions were explainable by the CTE diagnosis. But even if Benoit’s actions were not caused by CTE, we know that the chair shots were largely responsible for the CTE and that people with advanced CTE exhibit that sort behavior. That alone defends the idea to stop doing them.
I just don’t think the evidence is conclusive enough to say that because 1 guy, literally, after all the terrible shots to the head wrestlers have taken, is reason as to why we need to eliminate something entirely. There’s so many factors as to how or why he could’ve gotten CTE to the point he went off the deep end like he did. Maybe his brain couldn’t take it as much as the next guy? I mean that’s clearly the case because you’ve never seen people massacring their family or killing people all over in the wrestling business.

Wouldn’t we see ECW legends just be in psych wards like crazy and have all sorts of mental problems with murder and everything else?

1 bad apple can’t possibly spoil the entire bunch.
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Plus, can’t CTE also be from genetics? I know it’s not entirely understood or conclusive, but can’t that be the case? And cases vary depending on the person and what their body can handle. Benoit took chair shots, but also did diving headbutts and botched I’m sure thousands of bumps and got concussions from several and didn’t even know it... should we ban bumps? Lol I’m just playing devils advocate here...
 
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JacobFox

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I guess I don’t like the idea of “one bad apple spoils the bunch,” using that logic, why do anything risky that may have killed someone at some point?
It's not one bad apple. There is much, much documentation of people suffering from CTE committing violent acts and killing people. It was just one incident, I would agree with you. But it's well documented in medical and scholarly journals that people with advanced CTE can suffer from severely impaired brain function, suffering delusions and inability to control their emotions with occasional bouts of dementia and violence.

Also, I’m not saying put wrestlers in harms way by exposing them to nonstop risk, but I’m also saying that the Benoit think literally never happens, even with wrestlers who had or have taken more shots than him. The odds of it not happening at gigantic. Again, I’m not condoning wrestlers just being mangled or destroyed, but this chair shot thing has been common practice for years and only 1 person went off the deep end after being hit in his head like literally a billion times for over 20 years. And, we speculate it was because of the chair shots. Could’ve been mainly because of diving headbutts?

It has happened again. Verne Gagne murdered a man. He was diagnosed with CTE and he killed a 97 year old man. Afterward, he had no memory of the event. His brain was similar to Benoit's at the time of his death. Dave Duerson, a Chicago Bear, suffered from CTE and he shot and killed himself. Jimmy Snuka exhibited CTE symptoms when he killed his girlfriend. Kevin Turner died at age 46 because he had CTE. CTE killed him. Test had advanced CTE when he committing suicide. If you feel like reading some scholarly journals on the matter, I would be happy to pass them along. I could easily find 1000s of case studies of violent behavior related to CTE.

This is speculative, but even OJ Simpson had suffered several concussions during his career and has exhibited CTE symptoms.

CTE is a by product of concussions and chair shots can cause concussions. Head butts can cause concussions. Diving headbutts can cause concussions. But does it really matter? One head butt and one chair shot CAN cause a concussion and ONE concussion can cause CTE. Neither unprotected chair shots nor head butts are necessary in wrestling and are two easy ways to get concussions.



I just don’t think the evidence is conclusive enough to say that because 1 guy, literally, after all the terrible shots to the head wrestlers have taken, is reason as to why we need to eliminate something entirely. There’s so many factors as to how or why he could’ve gotten CTE to the point he went off the deep end like he did. Maybe his brain couldn’t take it as much as the next guy? I mean that’s clearly the case because you’ve never seen people massacring their family or killing people all over in the wrestling business.
Again, it's not one guy though. The evidence is quite convincing.

Wouldn’t we see ECW legends just be in psych wards like crazy and have all sorts of mental problems with murder and everything else?
I think if you go back and watch a lot more ECW, you would see that most chair shots were protected. However, several wrestlers who died of drug overdoses who worked in ECW had advanced CTE when autopsied, such as Axl Rottin and Balls Mahoney. It's not unusual for people with CTE to overdose on druge.


Plus, can’t CTE also be from genetics? I know it’s not entirely understood or conclusive, but can’t that be the case? And cases vary depending on the person and what their body can handle. Benoit took chair shots, but also did diving headbutts and botched I’m sure thousands of bumps and got concussions from several and didn’t even know it... should we ban bumps? Lol I’m just playing devils advocate here...

No, CTE cannot be caused by genetics. It is, by definition, brain degradation caused by concussions resulting from repeated blows to the head. If you genetically have CTE symptoms, it is Alzheimers. CTE is only caused by blows to the head.

So there is no one bad apple going on here. If banning unprotected chair shots and head butts could save the lives of even one of these people and keeping the ones who live with CTE every day from having to do so, then I think that is very little to ask. Wouldn't it be better to try to prevent these things before they happen from now on?

And no, I am not the type of person who thinks who should ban everything just on the chance that it might be dangerous. But the evidence between CTE and acts of violence upon oneself and others is pretty convincing.
 

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