NJPW Does Kazuchika Okada vs Kenny Omega really deserve a six star rating?

Shayon

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On January 4 this year, at the Super Bowl of NJPW, Wrestle Kingdom 11, the world saw Kazuchika Okada go on to defend his IWJP title against one of my all time favorites, Kenny Omega, for the first time ever. And after 47 minutes of one of the most intense matches I've ever seen, Okada retained his title. But, what's more interesting is Dave Meltzer's rating of this match, Mr Meltzer rated the main event of wk 11, for the first time ever, in the case of a televised match, a six out of a five star rating! This goes on to say, how much he loved it. Also he added, and I quote, "Kenny Omega and Kazuchika Okada may have put on the greatest match in history!"
And to earn this from Mr Meltzer, a match has to be, well, more than perfect, that is six stars! But industry veteran Jim Cornette said that, he doesn't think that the match even deserves a 4.5 star rating, let alone a six star! He also panned the match for being just a showcase of crazy moves done to live up to the hype, and criticized it for its over extended length, adding, "This was a "good" 20 minute match, that was dragged 47 minutes! "
So guys, what's your take on this match, it's surely beyond doubt that it's a great match, but does it deserve the all time high six star rating that Meltzer gave it? Also, how's it compared to all the great matches in WWE?
 

JacobFox

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I am a total Okada mark. I won't deny that. However, I am willing to admit that Okada does not have the ability to elevate other talent. Okada is a GREAT wrestler, but his best matches are with other great wrestlers.

So here is my take. Does that match deserve 6 stars? Nope. But the reason behind my answer is that I am a bit of a math geek. If the ultimate rating is 5 stars, giving a match 6 stars is just stupid.

I don't have much respect for Meltzer, actually And I don't really give his opinion much consideration. I pretty much base my opinion on what I experience, not what others tell me.

Now in regards to the actual match, yes, I think this match is one of the greatest matches in wrestling history. I think it rates up there with Ric Flair vs Rick Steamboat, Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker and many others. This was a GOOD match and one of the best ever.

Jim Cornette may have felt it dragged, but as much as I respect Jim, I have to disagree. I didn't even realize the match was 46 minutes long until two days later. I was entertained.

But this is my viewpoint on the match. The match wasn't good because of Okada. The match was good because of Kenny Omega. Omega has talent that very few others in wrestling history have had. He has the ability to put on a good match with anyone he faces. He is similar to Ric Flair and HBK in that way. So yes, this was one of the best matches I have ever seen in 31 years as a wrestling fan. But it was good because Kenny Omega put on the match of his life.

Does it deserve 6 stars? No. You can't create a 5 star rating system and give any match 6 stars. Will it be match of the year for 2017? Without a doubt.
 

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First: Moved to the international section since Meltzer's rating of Okada vs Omega has nothing to do with WWE.

On topic: Meltzer has his obvious biases. He is a very big fan of the current New Japan product and has been for some time. So him rating that main event epic at that level is not that farfetched. He breaks his star ratings mold roughly once every 15 or so years, adding another star. So it was about time it happened.

People also need to take a step back and realize that Melty's rating is not the end all, be all. Everyone rates things differently because people enjoy different things.
 

JacobFox

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First: Moved to the international section since Meltzer's rating of Okada vs Omega has nothing to do with WWE.

On topic: Meltzer has his obvious biases. He is a very big fan of the current New Japan product and has been for some time. So him rating that main event epic at that level is not that farfetched. He breaks his star ratings mold roughly once every 15 or so years, adding another star. So it was about time it happened.

People also need to take a step back and realize that Melty's rating is not the end all, be all. Everyone rates things differently because people enjoy different things.
I pretty much 100% agree here. There are people who think the match is the best of all time. There are people who think the match was boring. There are people who think the match was okay, but definitely not one of the best ever. Dave's opinion is pretty much irrelevant. The only opinion that really matters is the person watching the match. Some are going to love it. Some are going to hate it. Some are going to think it's okay. But the important thing is that they come to this conclusion on their own, not because someone led them to believe it.
 

Grievous 3D

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Different Eyes See Different Things...

Of course I haven't watched the actual match yet...but I do have a question...

This match is around 45 minutes long right? How is that possible if it wasn't
an "Ironman" match?

I thought the time limit for any standard wrestling match was 30 minutes?
 

JacobFox

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No, most matches nowadays aren't announced to have time limits. People claim that the standard time limit is 60 minutes, but that is seldom if ever actually put into play nowadays.
 
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Wow...okay...I could have sworn it was 30 minutes
back in the day...may-be around SummerSlam 91?

I could have sworn Bobby Heenan mentioned it
during the awesome Bret Hart vs. Mr. Pecfect IC
title match...which by the way if you haven't seen
that match...check it out...its 4.5 star classic.

I had the vhs tape when I was a kid...along
with SummerSlam 90 as well...

Wow...60 minutes...so the Wrestlemania 32
main event really could have been worse.
:P
 

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No, most matches nowadays aren't announced to have time limits. People claim that the standard time limit is 60 minutes, but that is seldom if ever actually put into play nowadays.
The standard time limit for IWGP heavyweight matches is 60 minutes. Doesn't mean they have to go the full monty. But they have the option (in kayfabe)
 
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Leo C

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People also need to take a step back and realize that Melty's rating is not the end all, be all. Everyone rates things differently because people enjoy different things.
It's so great to see someone who recognizes that Meltzer's ratings are, in fact, just one dude's opinion. It kinda bums me out how much people treat his ratings as a decree or something of that nature.

Anyway, on this particular case I 100% agree with Meltzer. When the match ended I rated it 6 stars too. I didn't feel like the match dragged at all; the pacing was excellent and the long periods of selling are exactly what's supposed to happen after all the crazy moves that took place. They portrayed exhaustion very well too and the match did tell a story; in that Omega wrestled the biggest match of his life and thus he gave 110%, but this isn't Okada's first rodeo and it's not easy to put him down. Even the finisher "spamming" in the end was great; as there is a time and a place to do the Rainmaker kick outs and callbacks like Okada holding onto his wrist. The fact Kenny never hit the One Winged Angel was also a very nice story told there.

Anyway, I could probably keep going on but it should suffice to say that while I'm really not a mark for any of these guys at all, I was near tears after the match ended just for how good it was. It was by far the best match I ever saw in my entire life.
 
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Shayon

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I am a total Okada mark. I won't deny that. However, I am willing to admit that Okada does not have the ability to elevate other talent. Okada is a GREAT wrestler, but his best matches are with other great wrestlers.

So here is my take. Does that match deserve 6 stars? Nope. But the reason behind my answer is that I am a bit of a math geek. If the ultimate rating is 5 stars, giving a match 6 stars is just stupid.

I don't have much respect for Meltzer, actually And I don't really give his opinion much consideration. I pretty much base my opinion on what I experience, not what others tell me.

Now in regards to the actual match, yes, I think this match is one of the greatest matches in wrestling history. I think it rates up there with Ric Flair vs Rick Steamboat, Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker and many others. This was a GOOD match and one of the best ever.

Jim Cornette may have felt it dragged, but as much as I respect Jim, I have to disagree. I didn't even realize the match was 46 minutes long until two days later. I was entertained.

But this is my viewpoint on the match. The match wasn't good because of Okada. The match was good because of Kenny Omega. Omega has talent that very few others in wrestling history have had. He has the ability to put on a good match with anyone he faces. He is similar to Ric Flair and HBK in that way. So yes, this was one of the best matches I have ever seen in 31 years as a wrestling fan. But it was good because Kenny Omega put on the match of his life.

Does it deserve 6 stars? No. You can't create a 5 star rating system and give any match 6 stars. Will it be match of the year for 2017? Without a doubt.
Thanks for ur insights, but I wanna know that if this is the ultimate match. In my opinion, this match was far from being perfect. For example, there were very few near falls in this match to make it even great, like, the first ever fall of this match was at around the 13 minute mark, which takes away from the match so much, and Okada kicked out of that fall at only one, it's like the basic first fall of the match, which, even in less than average matches happens in the first 1.5 minutes, at maximum. Apart from the so - late first fall, there were too few number of near falls in this match to make it even a classic, like, after executing the tombstone piledriver, Okada didn't cover omega, when he had that opportunity, it's not that he was unable to cover him, he was just standing, a near fall right there would have really increased the tension in this match, so that was one problem. Another thing is that, I agree with Mr Cornette that the match was too much dragged, although they hit each other with brutal moves, they over sold all of them by just lying down for almost 3 minutes after each move, even towards the beginning of the match, so many times it felt like they booked this match keeping the 46 minute frame in mind, which further hurt the match. But still it was truly a treat, to say the least. I personally would've given it a 4.25 rating. But again no disrespect to Mr Meltzer and his six star rating,
 

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Thanks for ur insights, but I wanna know that if this is the ultimate match. In my opinion, this match was far from being perfect. For example, there were very few near falls in this match to make it even great, like, the first ever fall of this match was at around the 13 minute mark, which takes away from the match so much, and Okada kicked out of that fall at only one, it's like the basic first fall of the match, which, even in less than average matches happens in the first 1.5 minutes, at maximum. Apart from the so - late first fall, there were too few number of near falls in this match to make it even a classic, like, after executing the tombstone piledriver, Okada didn't cover omega, when he had that opportunity, it's not that he was unable to cover him, he was just standing, a near fall right there would have really increased the tension in this match, so that was one problem. Another thing is that, I agree with Mr Cornette that the match was too much dragged, although they hit each other with brutal moves, they over sold all of them by just lying down for almost 3 minutes after each move, even towards the beginning of the match, so many times it felt like they booked this match keeping the 46 minute frame in mind, which further hurt the match. But still it was truly a treat, to say the least. I personally would've given it a 4.25 rating. But again no disrespect to Mr Meltzer and his six star rating,
You said it yourself. In your opinion it was not the perfect match. In Meltzer's it was. Difference being that Dave Meltzer is the top journalist in the wrestling field and thus his opinion is going to carry more weight than yours, both in a positive and negative way.

But at the end of the day it comes down to each person's individual opinion. I myself rated it 5 stars but also preferred the Naito vs Tanahashi match (which I also gave 5) since that is more the type of match I enjoy. Heck, I rated both Hirmou vs Kushida and Shibata vs Goto 4.9
 

JacobFox

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Thanks for ur insights, but I wanna know that if this is the ultimate match. In my opinion, this match was far from being perfect. For example, there were very few near falls in this match to make it even great, like, the first ever fall of this match was at around the 13 minute mark, which takes away from the match so much, and Okada kicked out of that fall at only one, it's like the basic first fall of the match, which, even in less than average matches happens in the first 1.5 minutes, at maximum. Apart from the so - late first fall, there were too few number of near falls in this match to make it even a classic, like, after executing the tombstone piledriver, Okada didn't cover omega, when he had that opportunity, it's not that he was unable to cover him, he was just standing, a near fall right there would have really increased the tension in this match, so that was one problem. Another thing is that, I agree with Mr Cornette that the match was too much dragged, although they hit each other with brutal moves, they over sold all of them by just lying down for almost 3 minutes after each move, even towards the beginning of the match, so many times it felt like they booked this match keeping the 46 minute frame in mind, which further hurt the match. But still it was truly a treat, to say the least. I personally would've given it a 4.25 rating. But again no disrespect to Mr Meltzer and his six star rating,
You see, that just proves what we're saying. How much we like the match is individual. Because one of the things I liked about the match was that it was not a near fall fest from the beginning. I don't think a match has to be near fall after near fall in order to be a good match. This match had a gradual progression that I liked and that is why I rated it so high.
 

JacobFox

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You said it yourself. In your opinion it was not the perfect match. In Meltzer's it was. Difference being that Dave Meltzer is the top journalist in the wrestling field and thus his opinion is going to carry more weight than yours, both in a positive and negative way.

But at the end of the day it comes down to each person's individual opinion. I myself rated it 5 stars but also preferred the Naito vs Tanahashi match (which I also gave 5) since that is more the type of match I enjoy. Heck, I rated both Hirmou vs Kushida and Shibata vs Goto 4.9
Agreed yet again. I mean with the main message of what you're saying. I definitely think Okada vs Omega was the best match on that card, but everyone else's opinion doesn't matter because the only one that can tell us if we enjoy a match is ourself.
 

Shayon

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It's so great to see someone who recognizes that Meltzer's ratings are, in fact, just one dude's opinion. It kinda bums me out how much people treat his ratings as a decree or something of that nature.

Anyway, on this particular case I 100% agree with Meltzer. When the match ended I rated it 6 stars too. I didn't feel like the match dragged at all; the pacing was excellent and the long periods of selling are exactly what's supposed to happen after all the crazy moves that took place. They portrayed exhaustion very well too and the match did tell a story; in that Omega wrestled the biggest match of his life and thus he gave 110%, but this isn't Okada's first rodeo and it's not easy to put him down. Even the finisher "spamming" in the end was great; as there is a time and a place to do the Rainmaker kick outs and callbacks like Okada holding onto his wrist. The fact Kenny never hit the One Winged Angel was also a very nice story told there.

Anyway, I could probably keep going on but it should suffice to say that while I'm really not a mark for any of these guys at all, I was near tears after the match ended just for how good it was. It was by far the best match I ever saw in my entire life.
Yeah I agree that that the match was truly a treat, but it wasn't perfect, let alone be a six star rating worthy match. Imagine this, WWE, the biggest company in wrestling history has had only 5 five star matches in its glorious history, also it took 14 long years for the last 5 star match to happen in 2011 after the hbk five star match in the 90's, so that speaks a lot about how tough is the rating system of Mr Meltzer. Keeping that in mind, there's no way this match is a six star match, I mean just think about it, was it so epic, so perfect, so universally damn awesome, that Meltzer was bound to break away from his rating system, in order to do justice to this match?
 

Shayon

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You see, that just proves what we're saying. How much we like the match is individual. Because one of the things I liked about the match was that it was not a near fall fest from the beginning. I don't think a match has to be near fall after near fall in order to be a good match. This match had a gradual progression that I liked and that is why I rated it so high.
No it doesn't need to be a near fall fest, but I said it didn't have enough near falls either, if you look at it that way, then it may seem to just be a crazy spot fest! And it's not, similarly, a match with plenty of near falls isn't always a near fall fest,
 

Shayon

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No, it doesn't. Meltzer gave it 6 stars because he thinks he's cool. Still, it was an excellent match that I enjoyed, but a 6-star rating? Ridiculous.
No doubt about that it was an amazing match, a treat. But it was just that, not more not less. It was far from being the ultimate match that deserves a six star rating
 

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No it doesn't need to be a near fall fest, but I said it didn't have enough near falls either, if you look at it that way, then it may seem to just be a crazy spot fest! And it's not, similarly, a match with plenty of near falls isn't always a near fall fest,
Matches don't need a bunch of near falls either. That comes down to taste
 

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No doubt about that it was an amazing match, a treat. But it was just that, not more not less. It was far from being the ultimate match that deserves a six star rating
Yeah, as Jacob already said: "If the ultimate rating is 5 stars, giving a match 6 stars is just stupid." and I agree with that 100%.
 
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