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Snowman

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I didn't say they HAVE the talent. I said they HAD the talent. Over the years, they HAD all of the talent to make the show interesting and successful. Instead, they chose to bury the good talent and to let a few less talented people rise to the top. And they did let some top tier talent shine, line AJ Styles. But they completely killed most of the best talent for one reason. And the reason is true because it came out of Vince's mouth. He said he knows what the fans want more than the fans know.

The sagging ratings of Raw and NXT sorely show that he is wrong.

And I have to disagree with Snow. The heel Roman was good at first, but now it's just boring again. I just don't believe, and won't believe, he is main event talent. I thought maybe he could be, watching his first match with Lesnar, but then it fizzled.

It's just my opinion, and nothing anyone says is going to change that. He is boring and he does not belong in the main event. He is a mid card talent.
In 2014, they had Cody, Sami Zayn, Neville, Bray Wyatt, Rusev, and all 3 Shield guys all under 28. On top of Punk (at first), Bryan, Owens coming in, a hot signing in Kenta (lol)

Could you imagine a NJPW-style "top group of guys" - fuck having THE GUY, that's why this company is dying - booking a sports entertainment company with that? Lots of different guys great at doing different things.

It's kinda astonishing how little they got out of that group.
 
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Stone Cold X

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In 2014, they had Cody, Sami Zayn, Neville, Bray Wyatt, Rusev, and all 3 Shield guys all under 28. On top of Punk (at first), Bryan, Owens coming in, a hot signing in Kenta (lol)

Could you imagine a NJPW-style "top group of guys" - fuck having THE GUY, that's why this company is dying - booking a sports entertainment company with that? Lots of different guys great at doing different things.

It's kinda astonishing how little they got out of that group.
It made me facepalm, everyone listed had their part. Rusev was in his own path, and had his massive following. Every Monday, I would look forward to what happens next. His storyline was great until they fucked up. Hell, I enjoyed his "I'm the best!" storyline in the battle between Russia and U.S. WWE played into the politics of Russia vs U.S. with Trump vs Russia or conspiracy theories like "OH Trump is with Russia!"

Neville had his own great gimmick, all he needed to do was be in storyline that's better than what WWE booked him into. Untapped potential there. Ricochet is obviously replacing him. Not fun, but true, however... for a time he was buried, and he's still in midcard, and I don't see him getting out of there. Yet another untapped potential.

The Shield was perfect, I just... DON'T know why... fucking breaking them up...? Or hell, letting Dean Ambrose go. Just so many stupid, hard headed decisions. Ugh.
 

Redboy123@

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Surely for every failure there is a someone who succeeded.

It's actually delusional to think that anyone will be the next rock or Austin so let's not scrutinise wwe for not creating one
 

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It's between a 6 or 7. I think 7 is too generous.

The matches were mostly solid. I really enjoyed the US Triple Threat and Becky/Bianca. Thought the Sasha Banks return was HOT (In more ways than one!)

Balor/Roman was great up until the finish which I wasn't a huge fan of.

Overall a decent show but nothing I'm likely to remember years from now. For a WWE B-PPV, it was good.
 
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Snowman

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I didn't say they HAVE the talent. I said they HAD the talent. Over the years, they HAD all of the talent to make the show interesting and successful. Instead, they chose to bury the good talent and to let a few less talented people rise to the top. And they did let some top tier talent shine, line AJ Styles. But they completely killed most of the best talent for one reason. And the reason is true because it came out of Vince's mouth. He said he knows what the fans want more than the fans know.

The sagging ratings of Raw and NXT sorely show that he is wrong.

And I have to disagree with Snow. The heel Roman was good at first, but now it's just boring again. I just don't believe, and won't believe, he is main event talent. I thought maybe he could be, watching his first match with Lesnar, but then it fizzled.

It's just my opinion, and nothing anyone says is going to change that. He is boring and he does not belong in the main event. He is a mid card talent.
This ain't even agree to disagree. Even liking his performance feels like talking up how good Stone Cold was in his 2001 heel run. His performance was really good, but man do the dynamics suck hard...

Admittedly part of it is Roman only making himself look good, but I've really been wondering how of so many super pushes... when an up and comer faced Asuka as NXT Champion, you may not have believed the other girl was winning, but you still wanted to see the match and get sucked in. When Okada was IWGP Champ, it felt like NJPW still had 4 of the best wrestlers in the world in Tanahashi, Naito, Ibushi, and Omega and Okada was EVEN BETTER than those 4 only making him stronger. With Roman, it feels like he's so kayfabe unstoppable that the rest of the roster is mostly impotent. Why is this so different from the other two? (Because WWE can't book, but you know what I mean)

Maybe it's just how if Finn Balor takes a competitive clean loss, it makes him look good by keeping up with Roman. This is just the writers' room looking like a Cheesh and Chong scene
 
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Killer Orange Cat

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With Roman, it feels like he's so kayfabe unstoppable that the rest of the roster is mostly impotent. Why is this so different from the other two? (Because WWE can't book, but you know what I mean)
Because Okada is a much better wrestler than Roman. I am sorry, but you can make someone look kayfabe unstoppable as much as you want and it doesn't make a difference if the guys is not good enough in the ring to back it up. You can put chocolate sauce on dog manure and it doesn't change the fact that it is dog manure.

I have barely watched a WWE show at all in the past couple of years. And he is the major reason why. If I cannot believe what is going on, then it is no fun. And I cannot believe in Roman Reigns being the number one guy in the company.
 

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Because Okada is a much better wrestler than Roman. I am sorry, but you can make someone look kayfabe unstoppable as much as you want and it doesn't make a difference if the guys is not good enough in the ring to back it up. You can put chocolate sauce on dog manure and it doesn't change the fact that it is dog manure.

I have barely watched a WWE show at all in the past couple of years. And he is the major reason why. If I cannot believe what is going on, then it is no fun. And I cannot believe in Roman Reigns being the number one guy in the company.
But, who is going to replace Austin or The Rock? This is what I asked before. They are grooming Roman Reigns as the next generation Austin or The Rock. They're trying to do it. Yes, I know, you think he sucks... but this is what WWE is doing.

Brock Lesnar is just merely a stand-in as a replacement for Undertaker or Austin or The Rock.

Right now, there is NO "Face of the company." Austin and Rock were the face(s) of WWE depending on what WWE plans to market that month.

WWE now that they've shot themselves in the foot by removing things that make the company "make money," does not have a "spokesperson."

There is only "WWE Universe" (their own self-contained fanbase), and no casual fans who know WWE by name because of John Cena, Austin, The Rock, and The Undertaker.

That's what they're building with Roman Reigns.

You can't sit there and tell me, there's a Stone Cold or The Rock replacement in that Locker Room. Except Roman Reigns.

I do understand what you're saying, because this is what the fanbase said back when Daniel Bryan was red hot.

And that's the other thing; Daniel Bryan in WWE was not an Austin. He was more of a Shawn Michaels where only the WWE fans (universe) understand, the outside world doesn't understand the "Yes!" chants, memes, etc.

I say the same for fandango, he was red hot for a while, because the marketing for him did not translate into sales, attendance, or views for WWE. But that's what I've been saying. WWE needs an Austin, Rock, Cena or Undertaker.
 

Killer Orange Cat

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But, who is going to replace Austin or The Rock? This is what I asked before. They are grooming Roman Reigns as the next generation Austin or The Rock. They're trying to do it. Yes, I know, you think he sucks... but this is what WWE is doing.

Brock Lesnar is just merely a stand-in as a replacement for Undertaker or Austin or The Rock.

Right now, there is NO "Face of the company." Austin and Rock were the face(s) of WWE depending on what WWE plans to market that month.

WWE now that they've shot themselves in the foot by removing things that make the company "make money," does not have a "spokesperson."

There is only "WWE Universe" (their own self-contained fanbase), and no casual fans who know WWE by name because of John Cena, Austin, The Rock, and The Undertaker.

That's what they're building with Roman Reigns.

You can't sit there and tell me, there's a Stone Cold or The Rock replacement in that Locker Room. Except Roman Reigns.

I do understand what you're saying, because this is what the fanbase said back when Daniel Bryan was red hot.

And that's the other thing; Daniel Bryan in WWE was not an Austin. He was more of a Shawn Michaels where only the WWE fans (universe) understand, the outside world doesn't understand the "Yes!" chants, memes, etc.

I say the same for fandango, he was red hot for a while, because the marketing for him did not translate into sales, attendance, or views for WWE. But that's what I've been saying. WWE needs an Austin, Rock, Cena or Undertaker.

I don't believe there has to be someone groomed to be the face of the company.

WWE has, over the years, had a lot of wrestlers organically get over with the fans. They had Daniel Bryan and Bray Wyatt and others. But they chose to overlook them in favor of Roman.

You can't tell the fans what they should like and that has been the Reigns problem from day one.

Roman is not an Austin either. So, they should go with who they think might be the best in lack of an Austin type character?

WWE can do whatever they want. I am not claiming they can't. But that doesn't mean I have to watch. And until the Roman thing is done, there is plenty of much better wrestling in the world to keep me entertained.

You can't sit there and tell me, there's a Stone Cold or The Rock replacement in that Locker Room. Except Roman Reigns.

Maybe I can't. But I can tell you that that person is not Roman Reigns.

Yes, I know, you think he sucks

I don't think Roman sucks and I likely have never said that he does. I have maintained only that he is mid card talent at best and doesn't belong as champion or face of the company.

Plenty of great wrestlers in the past were mid card talent at best. Greg Valentine is one that immediately comes to mind. That doesn't equal "he sucks." But it does mean I don't think he should be in the position he is in.
 
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Stone Cold X

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I don't believe there has to be someone groomed to be the face of the company.

WWE has, over the years, had a lot of wrestlers organically get over with the fans. They had Daniel Bryan and Bray Wyatt and others. But they chose to overlook them in favor of Roman.
I agree.
You can't tell the fans what they should like and that has been the Reigns problem from day one.
I agree.
Roman is not an Austin either. So, they should go with who they think might be the best in lack of an Austin type character?
I am not talking about the character. I'm talking about his drawing power. This is called "conversion." A marketing person puts Stone Cold's face, name, and if need to be, his "accolade" like WWE Superstar or WWE Champion, a person sees it, is excited to buy a ticket, watch Raw or Smackdown, buy a shirt, buy a video game, or whatever. Vince is pulling away from this mindset, and is focused on advertising dollars. The problem is, those ratings are dependent on having big names or at least recognizable superstars. On a weekly basis, he's putting Roman Reigns on marketing materials. That's grooming him to become an Austin, Rock, Cena, and/or Undertaker.
WWE can do whatever they want. I am not claiming they can't. But that doesn't mean I have to watch. And until the Roman thing is done, there is plenty of much better wrestling in the world to keep me entertained.
I'm on the same boat. I'm watching highlights every Raw, NXT, and/or Smackdown. People like me, Vince is losing.
Maybe I can't. But I can tell you that that person is not Roman Reigns.
WWE is saying that. That's the point. They're saying "Roman Reigns is the new Austin, Rock, Cena, and/or Undertaker. This is our flagbearer."
I don't think Roman sucks and I likely have never said that he does. I have maintained only that he is mid card talent at best and doesn't belong as champion or face of the company.
I read that you did, but I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth.. if you think I am... I am sorry. I am only referencing what you said. I think its in this thread.
Plenty of great wrestlers in the past were mid card talent at best. Greg Valentine is one that immediately comes to mind. That doesn't equal "he sucks." But it does mean I don't think he should be in the position he is in.
Okay.
 

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I read that you did, but I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth.. if you think I am... I am sorry. I am only referencing what you said. I think its in this thread.

I do not say that Roman sucks even once in this thread.

My stance has consistently been that I don't think Roman is the man for the top spot in the company.

I think the dropping ratings agree with me.
 

Stone Cold X

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I do not say that Roman sucks even once in this thread.
Once again, I read that you did somewhere. Maybe I read someone else's post, or not. Either way, I am sorry if I offended you.
My stance has consistently been that I don't think Roman is the man for the top spot in the company.

I think the dropping ratings agree with me.
Yup.
 

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Once again, I read that you did somewhere. Maybe I read someone else's post, or not. Either way, I am sorry if I offended you.

Yup.

I am not offended. I am just the kind of guy who likes to make sure that my context is presented accurately.

I can understand why people might think I feel that way about Roman as I have been a harsh critic of his push. But I recognize that the man definitely has talent. I just don't think he has the talent WWE thinks he does.
 

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But, who is going to replace Austin or The Rock? This is what I asked before. They are grooming Roman Reigns as the next generation Austin or The Rock. They're trying to do it. Yes, I know, you think he sucks... but this is what WWE is doing.

Brock Lesnar is just merely a stand-in as a replacement for Undertaker or Austin or The Rock.

Right now, there is NO "Face of the company." Austin and Rock were the face(s) of WWE depending on what WWE plans to market that month.

WWE now that they've shot themselves in the foot by removing things that make the company "make money," does not have a "spokesperson."

There is only "WWE Universe" (their own self-contained fanbase), and no casual fans who know WWE by name because of John Cena, Austin, The Rock, and The Undertaker.

That's what they're building with Roman Reigns.

You can't sit there and tell me, there's a Stone Cold or The Rock replacement in that Locker Room. Except Roman Reigns.

I do understand what you're saying, because this is what the fanbase said back when Daniel Bryan was red hot.

And that's the other thing; Daniel Bryan in WWE was not an Austin. He was more of a Shawn Michaels where only the WWE fans (universe) understand, the outside world doesn't understand the "Yes!" chants, memes, etc.

I say the same for fandango, he was red hot for a while, because the marketing for him did not translate into sales, attendance, or views for WWE. But that's what I've been saying. WWE needs an Austin, Rock, Cena or Undertaker.
It's not the 90s anymore an Austin character will not be a huge popular cultural icon.

Anti establishment figures were huge in the 90s. Just not the same anymore.

No clue which type of character would be a huge thing. Don't think it's possible. Probably a gay trans bi racial woke green finger person
 

Stone Cold X

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To whom it may concern... (an idiot whom I shall not name...)
I am not talking about the character. I'm talking about his drawing power. This is called "conversion." A marketing person puts Stone Cold's face, name, and if need to be, his "accolade" like WWE Superstar or WWE Champion, a person sees it, is excited to buy a ticket, watch Raw or Smackdown, buy a shirt, buy a video game, or whatever. Vince is pulling away from this mindset, and is focused on advertising dollars. The problem is, those ratings are dependent on having big names or at least recognizable superstars. On a weekly basis, he's putting Roman Reigns on marketing materials. That's grooming him to become an Austin, Rock, Cena, and/or Undertaker.
I intentionally made the font large so you can READ.
 

Snowman

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I definitely see Roman as on a Cena-like level for them (I'd argue better, factoring in that the recent Cena-era white washing makes me nauseous. John Cena is not an all time great, and his reign on top was absolute dog shit. It blows my mind that people have turned around on him. Stop it.)

But going back to the Austin and Rock comparison, they also had Mick Foley, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Kane, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle. Big Show, Chris Benoit, and in wrestling I'd argue the most important figure of them all, Mr. McMahon himself.
 
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